Chinese occupation of Tibet

News around the Tibetan uprising in 2008, the riots, the Chinese repression

Saturday, April 5, 2008

An invitation to young Chinese and Tibetans

I am not happy with this blog.

The point is that perhaps it provides some information, but it doesn't help much to improve the situation. So, instead of informing others about what is happening, I like to hear from you what we could do about it.

What do you think can be done about the current situation in China?

China wants to be a respected country in the world, and likes a proper level of economic growth to make the people happy.
Hosting the Olympic Games should help to present a 'New China', which is well-developped and prosperous.
But now, the Tibetan people show their unhappiness, and it is possible that other minorities in China (like from Uigur) that are also unhappy will also begin more demonstrations.

Do you, as young Chinese or Tibetan think that arresting people, hurting them and try to make them say things they do not agree with, will make them happy citizens?

If you are interested to think about a solution, perhaps I can open a special Discussion Forum to discuss these kind of questions.
Of course others are more then welcome to react here also! The main point is to see if we can generate ideas for solutions to this challenge.

posted by Rudy @ 10:35 AM  

49 Comments:

  • At April 6, 2008 9:45 AM , Blogger 尼克 said...

    You are inaccurate on your claim that the police were pretending to be monks in the recent riots. Here a Buddhist investigates and shows the truth: http://ecumenicalbuddhism.blogspot.com/2008_04_06_archive.html Buddhists should stand up for truth, even when their leaders are in the wrong!

     

  • At April 6, 2008 11:38 AM , Blogger Denise Vestin said...

    who cares about who is right or wrong... the point is.. tibetans should be left alone to practice buddhism whichever way they please.
    This is the homeland of Dharma. Please do not let the Chinese government out of IGNORANCE extinguish this.

    I fully support a boycot of the Beijing olympics, and will refuse to watch - eventhough I love the chinese people (not so the government though)...having visited the beautiful city way back when.

    PRO tibet - ANTI olympics.

     

  • At April 6, 2008 11:43 AM , Blogger 尼克 said...

    No one stops them from practicing Buddhism they want. The government of China is only trying to stop Tibetan Secessionists. Living Buddhas have denounced these violent rioters, as these Tibetan secessionists are not living out Buddhism with their violent attacks on Han Chinese and others. Buddhism is practiced all over China, not only the Tibetan branch of Buddhism, but China is also the home of Chan(Zen)Buddhism as well. This was nto always true, but today Buddhism is totally embraced as a legal religion and practiced freely! Of course I say this as some one who has visited Buddhists in China many times and in many parts of the country.

     

  • At April 6, 2008 12:31 PM , Blogger Rudy said...

    dear 尼克,

    That is exactly the Party standpoint. But acting as if nothing is the matter is utterly embarassing for yourself, because everybody outside China realizes that there IS something wrong in Tibet.
    If you are interested in contributing to a solution to the problem, please feel welcome to discuss. Otherwise you and we are wasting our time.

     

  • At April 6, 2008 12:35 PM , Blogger 尼克 said...

    Why are people not admitting that the Western Media stories were lies and distortions and keep using them as "proof"? Are there issues in Tibet, yes. But crying wolf and lying about things does not help the problems at all, does it?

     

  • At April 6, 2008 12:36 PM , Blogger Rudy said...

    Dear Denise,

    I agree.
    On the other hand, to be blunt; who cares if you do not watch the olympics. I mean, it may clear your conscience, but absolutely nothing will change because of that.
    The point is, what can we do to make a differnece?

     

  • At April 6, 2008 12:42 PM , Blogger Rudy said...

    Dear 尼克

    What else can we do then crying wolf. What you forget is that not all the information is distorted as you assume.
    The point is not one picture, the point is not one article that may be right or wrong.
    The point is that people in Tibet are repressed much more severely then you probably know, and they are desperate. Have you been to Tibet? I have.
    Do you know what it means when Tibetan monks need to denounce the Dalai Lama? It hurts them more then denouncing their mother.

     

  • At April 6, 2008 12:48 PM , Blogger 尼克 said...

    But YOU HAVE used pictures and stories that were proven false. Why not apologize for your own mistakes if you want others to apologize for their mistakes? And you are right, it is not one picture or one article, it is many articles and pictures that are edited and libelous to try and hurt people, both Han Chinese and Tibetan Chinese alike. Why? Because Western media is more of an entertainment whore than a source of factual information these days.

     

  • At April 6, 2008 2:09 PM , Blogger Rudy said...

    Dear 尼克 ,

    Firstly; have you actually seen the page you are complaining about recently? I'm sure not. Please first have a look at http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/chinese-orchestrating-riots-tibet.htm and tell me what is wrong about it.
    But what about stopping with accusing each other, and instead helping to get to a solution?

     

  • At April 6, 2008 2:20 PM , Blogger 尼克 said...

    Yes I have seen the page and I commented on your blog, because every single image on the page has been proven not to be what the secessionist propagandists are saying they are.But FYI the Epoch Times never had any credibility anyway, they are simply the publishing arm of the Falun Gong/Falun Dafa cult. Here is some good information gathered by Chinese students: http://www.anti-cnn.com/

     

  • At April 6, 2008 2:33 PM , Blogger Rudy said...

    OK, for the last time a simple question: Do you want to discuss a solution to the situation in Tibet, or do you only want to complain?

     

  • At April 6, 2008 2:38 PM , Blogger 尼克 said...

    I would be more than happy to discuss a solution, I am just saying that we should come to a discussion with facts and should not support distortions, manipulations, or straight-out lies to support our side of the argument.

    This site is probably a good start for such a discussion, as it attacks both sides only using facts from a 3rd party observer: http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

     

  • At April 7, 2008 2:43 AM , Blogger Rudy said...

    Well, do you really think that an endless discussion about how Tibet was before 1950 will bring us any solutions for what is happening now? I assume both of us have not been around in Tibet then, and we would probably only fight over what is the truth and what isn't.

    To me, it is not really relevant what happened 100 or 50 years ago. Even if Tibet was an independent country then or not is not really imortant for me.

    Even in the most extreme situation that all the Chinese would leave Tibet tomorrow, I cannot see how Tibetans could practically run their own country without facing incredible problems.

    So, I am not advocating an independent Tibet, I think that is completely unrealistic in this situation, but I also think that the whole of China would be greatly helped when the Tibetans would feel less frustrated. Their frustration causes them to feel so terrible that often they even chose to go to prison for their actions then to continue the way it is now.
    Needless to say that these protests and unrests create problems for China as a whole, and nobody is helped by that.

    However, the kind of actions the Chinese government takes to stop the protests, inflame the Tibetans even more, so I think, we only get a situation that is getting worse if we continue this way.

    So I hope we can talk about a solution, and not hold a useless discussion about the past. I fear that a discussion of the past will only end up in a fight, and we both know that is the opposite of a solution.

     

  • At April 7, 2008 2:59 AM , Blogger Rudy said...

    Sorry, I forgot to mention, would you like to discuss this document I recently discovered?
    It was distributed by the Tibetans but apparently written by Chinese intellectuals.
    I put it on: http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/blog/documents

     

  • At April 7, 2008 6:12 AM , Blogger 胡言乱语 said...

    Hello Rudy,

    If you like to know the solution, we can discuss the solution only.

    Question 1: What do you think can be done about the current situation in China?
    Answer: The solution from my side is, stop supporting the Tibetan Secessionists from any external sources. Make an open dialog for both parties involved. But as Chinese government already mentioned, it is NOT POSSIBLE to have their own constitution; it is not possilbe to admit the "Tibet" area which include nearly 25% of the existing territory of Chinese government; it is not possible to have their own foreign affairs and military affairs. Anybody who had some political knowledge will know those requirement is in the end political requirement, it has nothing to do with the freedom of religion.

    Question 2: Do you, as young Chinese or Tibetan think that arresting people, hurting them and try to make them say things they do not agree with, will make them happy citizens?
    I do not think arresting people will make those people happy. But I DO BELIEVE in all countries, it is necessory to arresting some people to make all the other people happy. That is the reason why we have law and police departments.
    If you do not agree on this, please go to your local police office and release all the criminals from prison and invite them to your home. I would be so happy to see you give them the right to be happy.

    Rudy, be equitable and objective.
    Your questions are not searching for a solution. Your questions are already filled with discriminations. If you always think that your solution will "save" the Tibetan, we will not have a fair discussion. Because there are nearly 1 billion people which think the Tibetan do not need your "rescue". Actually, many Han people feel unfair for them that Tibetan have so many benefits from the goverment, it is the Han people need to be fairly treated now. If you keep ignoring the 95% of the population, just go and supporting the KKK and the newneo-Nazism then.

     

  • At April 7, 2008 8:20 AM , Blogger Rudy said...

    dear 尼克

    (By the way, is it possible to call you by a name in English - only because this is easier in the discussion?)

    Thank you so much, I appreciate your initiative; this could be a good start of a discussion.

    1. OK, so if 'outsiders' stop to support Tibetans because they wish to have some little bit of freedom in the country of birth, then what do you think will happen?
    I am sure that the vast majority of Tibetans are very unhappy in the current situation, as they have been over the last 50 years. Be it historically true or not, I think they FEEL just as much oppressed as the Chinese must have felt under the terrible Japanese occupation.

    The 'outside world' has given Tibet very little attention, at least during most of the 1960's, 1970's and 1980's. And this happened to be a terrible time in history for the Tibetans. Vitually all their monasteries were razed to the ground, and many suffered in prisons (not to speak of the hundreds of thousands who died in the cultural revolution).
    So if the west choses to turn a blind eye, why should we expect anything better then more abuse?
    With the current situation, the Chinese government has apparently chosen to fall back on Maoist re-education, where people are threatened and tortured to say the answers the government wants, and to force them to sign documents these people consider lies.
    I can guarantee you, this will never make any Tibetan think more positive about the Chinese, if anything, they will become more aggressive.
    But perhaps we are not only talking about the Tibetans here, but also other minorities in China where similar problems occur, like in East Turkistan or Inner Mongolia.

    OK, I fully agree with you that it is not possible that Tibetans have "their own foreign affairs and military affairs". But this is also NOT what the Dalai Lama is asking since MANY years now. Have you seen his latest appeal to the Chinese people? (you can find it at http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/blog/documents/appeal-chinese-people-hhdl.htm).
    What he proposes is a meaningful autonomy in which the Tibetans can enjoy cultural and religious freedom. A freedom in which the monasteries are not destroyed, in which a Tibetan does not need to ask the government for permission to become a monk, where the government is not imposing political indoctrination teachings in monasteries, or assume that monks act as tour-guides for tourists etc.

    2. I personally think that if you want to justify the killing and torture of hundreds of thousands of people in order to 'help' the one billion, then this only looks fair if you happen to be a Han Chinese. However, if you are part of a minority, you would probably not agree that you, your family and your friends should be sacrificed for the benefit of the majority?

    The problem is that unless you kill all the minorities in China, you will only create more internal enemies by repressing them.

    If you look at the MSN encyclopedia of Fascism, there are the following lines: "Fascism rejects liberal ideas such as freedom and individual rights, and often presses for the destruction of elections, legislatures, and other elements of democracy. Despite the idealistic goals of fascism, attempts to build fascist societies have led to wars and persecutions that caused millions of deaths."

    (For exactly the same reasons, I think the USA also has a very bad track-record in history, beginning with the indeginous American Indians, up to the prisoners that are held outside any legal framework at Guantanamo Bay. This just to clarify I am not anti Chinese or anti American, but against letting people suffer.)

    Of course, every country needs police and control criminals. But if you call someone a criminal only because he has a picture of a person he believes is a Buddha, I think there is something very wrong with that law.

    Let us suppose you like computers very much; perhaps you like gaming or just chatting on the internet, or simply find them technically very interesting. Suppose you have studied computer science and made it your job, and you like your job very much. Then suppose that one day, the government suddenly says that computers are bad, they destroy every computer they can find (including yours of course), and they make you jobless.
    Would that make you angry or not? Would you feel that this is fair? Would you happily agree with what your government says or would you protest? Especially when you think that the ban on computers is completely wrong for China as a whole, will you sit back and say, "OK, let them make me the victim for the benefit of everyone else."?

    So in my view, what would happen if the Government would be a bit more lenient? Of course not at violent protests; then it is the duty of any government to stop the violence - with reasonable forceful actions.
    But if people are protesting peacefully, why come the next day and arrest some random people, beat them up, and make the whole community angry?
    What do you think would happen if the Tibetans are allowed an innocent peaceful protest, and a Chinese government official behaves like a proper parent and tries to listen to the grievances. Perhaps he can even explain why certain things needed to be done. Do you really think the people will go out in the streets the next day to have violent protests? I don't think so, why would they?

    I think that violence is a method of a loser, be it a Tibetan or a government. I think it takes wiser people to search for an answer, and only discussion and agreement makes it possible for people to live together in peace.

    The larger point is, that however much you want it, the outside world is not going to go away, even if you have a billion people in China, it does not mean you will make friends by sacrificing part of your own population, just like the Germans wanted to sacrifice the Jews in the second world war. I think it is a complete contradition to creating a happy and prosperous nation, so why not try to give the unhappy people what they want, so they feel proud of being Chinese as well?

     

  • At April 8, 2008 7:55 AM , Blogger 尼克 said...

    I doubt that most Tibetans are unhappy being part of China. Why? Serfdom was made illegal, people no longer are slaves, they have free education, healthcare, etc. And the historical record shows that Tibet has been part of China for more time than it has not been. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2008-04/08/content_6599775.htm

    Many monasteries are still around, and yes when the unsuccessful revolt meant that many left the Tibet Autonomous Region, monasteries were razed. China used to be less friendly to religion, but this has changed.

    I agree that the Dalai Lama is asking for autonomy, but the Tibet Region is already autonomous. But since people in his so-called "Tibet-In-Exile-Government" incite the violent protests of the last month, how can the Chinese government trust this group?

    If a piece of your country wanted autonomy but the leaders of the autonomy group kept using violence, would you fall to their demands?

     

  • At April 8, 2008 9:31 AM , Blogger Praada said...

    Hi 尼克,

    "But since people in his so-called "Tibet-In-Exile-Government" incite the violent protests of the last month, how can the Chinese government trust this group?"

    You just echo the lies of your media.
    Since you don't question the media managed by your state, you buy every word of them as truth.
    If you don't remove your prejudices, you will never be able to know the truth.

     

  • At April 8, 2008 10:26 AM , Blogger 尼克 said...

    Praada, aren't the "free Tibet" crowds doing the exact same thing? I am all about reading all sources from all sides and getting the truth. As I showed before with a Buddhist site link, even the New York Times admitted that the CIA was paying the Dalai Lama and the so-called "Tibet in Exile Government" to disrupt China with secessionist violence! I am quoting sources from all over the geo-political spectrum. I even pointed to an article that attacks both sides of this argument, because it was pure facts with no propaganda.

     

  • At April 8, 2008 10:33 AM , Blogger 尼克 said...

    BTW Rudy, 尼克 is Nik in English. The other Chinese-named commenter in this thread is HuYanLuanYu. Your name in Chinese, Rudy, would be 露蒂.

     

  • At April 8, 2008 10:40 AM , Blogger 尼克 said...

    Here is some more good food for thought from an unbiased 3rd party who is neither pro-China nor pro-Secessionists: http://discussions.pbs.org/viewtopic.pbs?t=68073&sid=ce0b20590dd445725153c83b5ef21c7f

     

  • At April 8, 2008 10:53 AM , Blogger Song said...

    just don't know why you are still so concerning on the media issues...haven't you known that ALL MEDIAS LIE? go explore the truth by yourself, go to talk to more overseas Tibetans, go to Lhasa to talk to those Chinese Tibetans and those Chinese and Muslims living in Tibet, at least you won't get fooled by one side...forget CNN, BBC, CCTV and whatever...

     

  • At April 8, 2008 12:40 PM , Blogger Rudy said...

    Dear Nik,

    Have you been in Tibet? How any Tibetnas have you ever spoken to?
    I have been there, and I deal with Tibetans virtually on a daily basis. The vast majority of the Tibetans are very unhappy about the current situation.
    Of course, you can deny there is a problem altogether by copying the propaganda of the Chinese media, unfortunately, the rest of the
    world knows better. You may forget how many foreigners have been to Tibet, and despite the Government rules that every group needs to be accompanied by a Chinese guide who tries to control their every move, peole still have eyes.
    If most of the Tibetans were happy, why do they protest so massively? And if it was only a small minority who are unhappy, why would the western world care at all? There are enough little groups around the whole world that are not happy.
    Yes, the CIA supported for a short while and with very, very limited means, but to stand up with a few hundred militant Tibetans
    against the whole of China is of course a silly battle. But I amd sure you can count: that was many decades ago - probably long before you were born?

    It is clear that you have never been in Tibet. You say that many monasteries are still around. That is incorrect. There were only a handful of monasteries in the whole of Tibet that were not in ruins after the cultural revolution. That is perhaps 10 out of the many thousands!
    When people had a little bit more freedom after that devastating time of teh cultural revolution, they re-built some of the monasteries. So virtually every
    monastery you see in Tibet is re-built. Anyway, we would talk about the solution, because we may never agree about the past until you
    have seen Tibet by yourself.

    What has changed about the religious freedom is that monks are now allowed to perform rituals because it attracts tourists. They have

    to collect money from tourists as if they are showing a museum. Monks need to ask permission to the government before they can ordain, as far as I know, religious teachings are still forbidden in Tibet, monks are still forced to undergo political indoctrination sessions. If you call that religious freedom, I think you have a very different idea about what that word means.

    You say 'the leaders kept using violence'. Since early 1970's - that is about 35 years ago, there only have been very few protests. Before this March, the last significant protests and violence were from 1989 - you were probably barely born by then! And you sugest these are a kind of continuous protests - come on, continuous repression and once in a generation there are protests.

    But I suppose you have grown up with a completely one-sided view, with a complete control of the government over everything you could read, hear or see in the media, or read in books.

    If people hold peaceful protests in my country, the government tries to listen to their grievances, we don't shoot them and put them in jail, just because they want to explain they have problems.
    If, without provocation by the government still violence breaks out, my government tries to control the situation also with force; but not by shooting at protesters, and if people need to be jailed, they are not tortured or beaten up in jail. If such a thing occurs, the responsible policemen are put on trial and punished, just like every other citizen who misbehaves.

    Anyway, we are talking mostly about history again, which we will probably never going to agree on.

    So because of that, I try to discuss the present and the future. In my view, the Chinese governmetn can only expect their citizens to behave when they are treated reasonably.

    Why does the Chinese president not initiate talks with the Dalai Lama? Why is he so afraid of this monk?

     

  • At April 9, 2008 7:24 PM , Blogger 尼克 said...

    Rudy,

    First off you suppose wrong about my personal history. But I think history is important, as if we do not learn from our historical mistakes, then we are bound to repeat them. That is why I have tried to present unbiased third parties presenting facts rather than just propaganda from either side. Yes people who flee their country because they do not like the government are bound to be negative against that government, hence the Tibetans abroad that do not like Communism who protest against it.

    But again, the vast majority are not against Chinese rule which gives them more free services than the Han Chinese have in the rest of China. Free education, health care, ability to have more children, etc.

    As a foreigner you are limited in what part of Tibet you are legally allowed to see, so a Chinese citizen would have more ground to judge his or her judgement on this.

    I appreciate this conversation we are having, but I am afraid you underestimate my age. I am a middle-aged man, not a young student filled with the idealism of youth. :-D

     

  • At April 9, 2008 7:28 PM , Blogger 尼克 said...

    From a Buddhist blog: The Dalai Lama on the Chinese liberation of Tibet from the theocratic slavery of serfdom that the Dalai Lama then opposed:

    "Chairman Mao of the Central People's Government:

    This year the local government of Tibet sent five delegates with full authority headed by Kaloon Ngapoi to Beijing in late April 1951 to conduct peace talks with delegates with full authority appointed by the Central People's Government.

    On the basis of friendship, delegates on both sides concluded the Agreement on Measures for the Peaceful Liberation of Tibet on May 23,1951.

    The local government of Tibet as well as the Tibetan monks and laymen unanimously support this agreement, and under the leadership of Chairman Mao and the Central People's Government, will actively assist the People's Liberation Army in Tibet to consolidate national defence, drive imperialist influences out of Tibet and safeguard the unification of the territory and the sovereignty of the motherland. I hereby send this cable to inform you of this."

     

  • At April 10, 2008 12:03 AM , Blogger welovetibet said...

    have u been to Tibet?
    Do u know the real China and real Tibet?
    If u know nothing about it,plz shut up now, and buy a flight ticket to China.

    U know nothing about it, so
    just plz find out the truth.

    DO NOT USE THE WRONG PICTURE!!! DO NOT SAY SOME POINTLESS WORDS!!!!!

    TIBET BELONGS TO CHINA FOR ALMOUST 1000YEARS!!!!!
    DO U KNOW THE HISTROY OF CHINA AND TIBET???!!!!
    PLZ GO TO THE LIBRARY!!!

     

  • At April 10, 2008 2:16 AM , Blogger Rudy said...

    Dear Nik,

    Sorry about underestimating your age.
    But to be honest, the reason why I like to keep history out of this as much as possible, because I think it is very unlikely that I will accept your version of history, and you will accept my version of history. And as (I assume) we both were not there to know what exactly happened, it will simply become a yes and no game with two losers, if you understand what I mean. Especially in this case, where the versions of history vary so much, the problem is that we would both be learning opposite lessons from it.
    As with all scholarly works, I think that most Tibetologists do not agree with many of Parenti's conclusions to begin with, so already that document ends up as a yes-no case. There are by definition no 'unbiased' reports possible in my view, because all depends on which sources one uses. I am not

    an expert in Tibetan history at all myself so I would also be a very poor discussion partner on that matter for you :-(

    Your next statement about people fleeing the country is also one of the two conclusions that one can draw of this situation. Of course, the Tibetans who flee are certainly not pro-Chinese, that is obvious. But that observation is only half the truth, as it avoids the point that there are people who are desperate enough to risk their lives to escape. The escape route is dangerous enough in itself over high mountain passes with improper gear and supplies (because otherwise the police would easily spot them), but with a border police that shoots to kill it is a matter of life and death. With the current political situation in Nepal, also they are far from safe when make their way to Kathmandu. Quite a few of them are caught on the Nepalese side and deprted back to China, where punishment is waiting for them. The mere point that other Tibetans do not try to escape in my mind does not mean that they are happy, but that they are not desperate enough to risk their life.

    Also what you say that a Chinese citizen can judge better what is happening is subject to discussion. In a country with freedom of speech that would be absolutely true. But the problem is that when you go to Tibet as a Han Chinese, the local Tibetans will never dare to speak their minds with you, simply because they have the experience (especially during the cultural revolution) that any Chinese person (and even other Tibetans) can be spying on them, report them to the police, and before they know it, they land in jail or receive a beating or something like that. So I think for Chinese people, there is a real problem to get the honest opinion of the Tibetans on a personal level.
    And on the general level, you can see and hear only what the government-controlled media supply you, which is by definition the image of happy and prospering Tibetans, and in the unusual case that they need to report there is a problem, this is always presented as protests of a small agressive,

    militant group 'of the splittist Dalai Lama clique' etc. So I really think it is nearly impossible for a Chinese person to go to Tibet and get an honest opinion of Tibetans. So please understand, it is not a fault of the individual Chinese, but in the end due to the lack of freedom of expression that the general Chinese population is misled.
    On the other hand, of course, the Tibetans may not report objectively to western tourists either, but why would they complain when they are as happy as the Chinese media portray them?

     

  • At April 10, 2008 2:21 AM , Blogger Rudy said...

    Dear Welovetibet,

    Yes, I have been to Tibet and I have been to China. Have you ever been to Tibet?
    Regarding your other comments; please read the text before you begin to protest. I live in a country where there is freedom of expression. I can use whatever image I want on my website to illustrate my opinion, whether you or even my government likes it or not.
    Western library books do have a somewhat different view on history then the Chinese government-censored ones.
    But then, I don't care much about endless discussions of the past; the present is much more important for both the Chinese and the Tibetans.

     

  • At April 10, 2008 4:22 PM , Blogger 尼克 said...

    This is why I think we need to study the past. During the few years that Tibet was not under Chinese rule it had serfdom where most of the people were literally slaves. It was not a democracy and the people were not free. Now Tibetans can own land, businesses and decide what they want to do and they now have free education, free health care, social security, and many other social programs provided by the Chinese government when before they were simply slaves until the dies.

    As to why the Dalai Lama is seen as an enemy of China, well he welcomed the liberation of Tibet as he disagreed with imperial slavery of the so-called "free" Tibet and was glad to see Tibet back as a province of China as it had been for thousands of years. But then he foolishly led the violent secession movement of the late 1950's and as such he is seen as a traitor as any man would be seen by your western governments is he tried to take one of your provinces away by violent force.

    But I will even admit the mistakes taken by the Chinese government in the past and that there was repression, but for those faithful citizens of China who choose to live in Tibet, there is freedom of choice, religion, and career, which did not exist before.

     

  • At April 10, 2008 9:11 PM , Blogger Ning said...

    dude, tibet will always be a part of china. nuff said....

    the biggest hyprocritical thing is that the US is occupying Iraq right now. so get the hell out if you're so righteous!

     

  • At April 12, 2008 8:40 AM , Blogger Rudy said...

    Dear Nik,

    The statement that Tibet was a serfdom with most of the people being slaves is completely absurd in the eyes of the Tibetans that I ever spoke to. Of course, it was far from a democracy or something like that either, and I am sure that some people were serfs, but to make this a general description of the population is completely denied by Tibetans. So when you claim that 'a' westerner in an article writes differently, or that the Chinese keep spreading this story in order to justify their so-called 'liberation', is to deny what Tibetans say themselves - and perhaps they should know best....

    The Dalai Lama has never been happy to see Tibet again as province of China - what could a small people like the Tibetnas protest against a world-power like China? This is simply called bullying; it is like an elephant asking a mouse if he can have his food - when the mouse says
    'no', he will be crushed, so the only possible answer for the mouse is 'OK' - better to be hungry then dead.

    The point is that the document he signed (and I don't know all the details, I don't have the text and neither am I a Historian), but it is my understanding that the document promised autonomy for Tibet and religious freedom. As you perhaps do not realize, the Chinese held their part of this treaty for several years, until around 1956, when they began to interfere with more internal things in Tibet. Then, in 1959, it became obvious that they wanted to have complete control over all aspects of Tibet - cultural and religious as well, and that is why the first uprising of 1959 began.
    As you must surely know, a few years later, the Maoists began destroying virtually all religous buildings, terrorizing the country, forced people to plant rice in an area where no rice can grow, etc,; all of which led to massive deaths. All these things were happening in the whole of China of course and cost many Chinese also their lives. However, due to the extreme conditions in Tibet in terms of climate and in terms of how religious people were, the results of the Great Leap Forward and the whole cultural revolution were absolutely disastrous in Tibet.

    So despite this treaty, after 50 years, Tibetans still don't have religious freedom, and still no autonmy whatsoever as the Chinese promised - so this is also what the Dalai Lama is still asking for.

    Regarding your belief that there is religious freedom in Tibet, how can you know that, apart from the Chinese Government propaganda NOBODY believes that who has any understanding of the situiation ans who has been there.
    Yes, occasionally you hear of a tourist who has been there, who does not speak the language and who doesn't know anything about Buddhism; such a person has seen monks praying in a monastery, and they think that is religious freedom. Again, the Chinese mandatory guides to tourist groups have mainly the job of making people believe just that.

    Again, I can only repeat myself: if there is no problem as the Chinese Government keeps saying, why is there such a problem in reality? If there is no problem, why were journalists sent out of Tibet? If there is no problem why can't tourists visit Tibet? If no Tibetans were killed, why can we see images of shot Tibetans in the Internet, despite the Government clampdown?
    The problem is that the Chinese government is so arrogant, they never want to admit that any mistakes are made to begin with, so they cover up the truth with continuous lies. THAT is the one and only reason why all the media are state-controlled: so that the lies of the Government are the only thing that people will be able to see or hear.

     

  • At April 12, 2008 8:33 PM , Blogger 尼克 said...

    That's the thing, the former serfs and their families are not the ones protesting, it is the imperialists and their families that lost in China's liberation of Tibet. Now see why knowing the past of Tibet is so important to today's discussion of these issues?

     

  • At April 13, 2008 4:44 AM , Blogger Rudy said...

    Dear Nik,

    Sorry, your reply only comfirms you are totally relying on absurd Chinese propaganda. Since when are monks imperialists - do you even know what that word means?

    Also you don't respond to any criticism: when is China going to adhere to it's part of the agreement?

     

  • At April 13, 2008 6:14 AM , Blogger 尼克 said...

    No, I am relying on information from both sides and from unbiased 3rd parties, not just "my sides'" propaganda. I used the word imperialism, as this was the word the Dalai Lama used. In dialoguing it is good to use the same words that the other side uses to make it easier to reach common ground. So if you think imperialism is the wrong word to use talking about Tibet before Chine liberated her, then you need to take that up with your Dalai Lama! :-) And yes, I have admitted there were mistakes in the Chinese rule. Not only in Tibet either though. But China has been correcting those mistakes and that is why all of over China we see Buddhist, Christian, Muslim, Taoist, and other religious temples in most every city of every province That is why more and more citizens are part of a religion and worship freely. But secessionism is and never will be tolerated, just like it never was by any Western powers in history either!

     

  • At April 13, 2008 2:27 PM , Blogger Rudy said...

    Well, it seems to me that this discussion is pretty useless, as you are only trying to say that there is no problem.
    If there is no problem, why are we discussing here?

    And please, don't tell me that the whole world does not know what is happening in Tibet, or that the Chinese were invited with open arms in 1950 - that is propaganda. You could just as well say that Irak invited the US with open arms.

     

  • At April 13, 2008 2:33 PM , Blogger 尼克 said...

    There are some problems, but compared to 40 years ago, we have seen some serious progress. But when the imperialism was gone, when the Brits were kicked out and Tibet was liberated, the serfs definitely saw it as a good thing and the families of those serfs tend to have the same opinion. There are those who disagree, for sure. But this intra-China issue still has some problems, especially when some people are unwilling to listen to both sides and only listen to their own propaganda. And for the record, I am not Han Chinese myself, as you had assumed, but a Westerner who studied both sides before coming to this conclusion. I do visit China and doing so helped change my world view as a whole, and it is my visits and reading of a large number of documents that made me make this stand on the Tibet Autonomous Region of China.

     

  • At April 13, 2008 2:41 PM , Blogger 尼克 said...

    And again, from a Buddhist blog, eminent Buddhist masters and monks from Taiwan and Hong Kong condemn the Tibetan protesters saying they do not understand Buddhism:

    http://ecumenicalbuddhism.blogspot.com/2008/04/eminent-monks-masters-condemn-violence.html

    The Dalai Lama is only the head of one of 4 sects of Buddhism in Tibet. Why is he the only one trying to have it be more autonomous than it already is? Why are the leaders of the other 3 sects fine with Tibet back to being part of China like the Dalai Lama was when the liberation first took place? I know these are hard questions, but take the time to read up and see why. Unlike most ignorant major media-informed lemmings, Buddhists know the DL is not the head of all Buddhists in Tibet or anywhere else. The western media seems to try to paint him as a Pope of Buddhism, which we all know is not true. He is simply the leader of one sect. One sect of many that are in Tibet.

     

  • At April 13, 2008 3:00 PM , Blogger Rudy said...

    Dear Nik,

    Interesting, so why are you suggesting that you are Chinese with your nickname?

    You may have read a lot of documents, but it seems to me you haven't spoken to many Tibetans, if any at all. The point is that on paper, everything may be wonderful in Tibet, but the daily situation is very different from numbers of economic progress etc. For example, it seems that on average in China there is about 1 policeman for every 400 civilians or so, in Tibet that number seems to be 1 in 20; that has very severe consequences for daily life, especially because the majority of the Han Chinese still seem to feel far superior to Tibetans, and treat them as such. How Tibetans are treated is unfortunately not to be found in documents or statistics...

    Yes, there are improvements since the cultural revolution, but during that time all Tibetans were virtually living in a concentration camp...

    There are some improvements since 1950 also, but I'm sure the vast majority of Tibetans would be more then happy to let them go in return for the freedom they had before. People will be glad to return their sneakers if they are not arbitrarily locked up in prison and tortured, if women are not forcefully sterilized (without anaesthetics that is), if nomads can be nomads (and not robbed of their pastures and cattle and virtually loced up in camps in the middle of nowhere, without a chance to make a living), and if the monks do not have to undergo re-education sessions and denouncements of the person they admire most: His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
    Tibetans don't need a Hilton Hotel or McDonalds in Lhasa, even if that may be a sign of progress in the west.

     

  • At April 13, 2008 3:04 PM , Blogger Rudy said...

    Dear Nik,

    It seems you have never heard the Dalai Lama speak or so; he even threatened to resign if the violence in Tibet continued. What are you trying to prove?

    Also your other statement is misinformed, he is not head of one of the traditions of Tibetan Buddhism; he heads no tradition at all. If you mean the Gelug tradition, the head of that is the Ganden Tripa, and is not, and has never been the Dalai Lama. Please don't try to teach me Tibetan Buddhism, you obviously have no idea...

     

  • At April 13, 2008 4:08 PM , Blogger 尼克 said...

    He is the spiritual leader of many Tibetans, yes. Have I spoken to Tibetans, yes. My username is my name in Chinese, yes. But in this case it helped me as I watched people assume much about me based on them thinking I was Han Chinese. It was fascinating to watch the biases flow based on that alone. So I let the misconception perpetuate. Sorry if you felt mislead by my not correcting you earlier, Rudy.

    And more we agree on: I am glad that he threatened to resign, not as the Dalai Lama, but as the leader of the so-called "Tibet-in-Exile" "government". I publicized this a lot because it showed that the protests were not in fact peaceful. That they were violent. Innocent people were hurt, killed, and had their homes, businesses, schools, and hospitals destroyed in the name of "liberty"? How does this show a love for liberty? I applaud the DL for stating what he did.

    You may not believe it, but I have many books on and by the Dalai Lama. I think spiritually he is a magnificent leader and someone to look up to.

    But politically, I find him completely wrong when he supports these secessionists. The same secessionists who have now become violent in Tibet and other provinces of China and worldwide. I wish he had not worked with the PRC rather than the CIA and had worked in the system for more autonomy as then there would be more peace in Tibet. Everyone would not be fully satisfied, but I honestly think everyone would be more satisfied than they currently are. Your thoughts on this, Rudy?

     

  • At April 13, 2008 4:54 PM , Blogger Rudy said...

    Hi Nik, your impersonation was quite convincing.

    Of course there was some violence during the riots. Very unfortunately also some Chinese were een killed. However, why do the Chinese still 'forget' about the many Tibetans that were killed? What about teh probably thousands that are imprisoned by now? What about the point that very likely many of them are tortured right now?
    Yes, Tibetans are not angels, and they can get angry. You keep denying they have a reason to be angry, so why are they? Are the protesters all complete idiots in your view?
    If I were jumping on your toes long enough, I'm sure you will get violent as well - does that mean that you are violent and I am innocent?

    Then about the Dalai Lama being 'secessionist' or a 'splittist' - since 1974 or so, he is promoting the Middle Way approach of Tibet as part of China, but with cultural and religious autonomy. Why do you keep denying this? Why do you keep denying all his public statements on this over the last 3 decades, just like the Chinese government? What should he do to convince you, set himself alight or what? If you think he is a liar, please say so, you have a right to have your own opinion on him, but at least I know where you stand then.

     

  • At April 13, 2008 5:17 PM , Blogger 尼克 said...

    No, I understand he is now for more autonomy, and I can appreciate and support that stance. I am just saying that since he once supported secession and was considered a leader of that movement that was funded by the CIA, I can understand why the PRC sees him as an enemy. Any country would. Like you, I would love to see the DL and President Hu JinTao sit down and talk, but I can also understand why the PRC would consider him an enemy and chose not to.

    As for the protesters, the ones engaged in random violence are ones I would call idiots and Buddhist masters and monks have said so in much kinder words. :-) But the ones claiming that Tibet was never part of China, or using manipulated media photos, or other untruths are being misled and following liars like sheep. There are people who have legitimate grudges, but I think looking at the complete situation historically, without any biases, we would all have to say that the situation in Tibet has improved dramatically since the 1960's. I think the answer lies by working within the system to promote change other than protests and violence which do nothing but anger the central government and patriotic citizens. The "Free Tibet" crowd has definitely brought most of CHina together against this group with their latest actions from the violence in Tibet to the attacks on the Olympic torch, including trying to steal the torch from a disabled woman. Are these the actions of people fighting for "human rights"? Actions speak louder than words, true. But these negative actions have hurt progress significantly I feel.

     

  • At April 13, 2008 5:21 PM , Blogger 尼克 said...

    Again, thank you for bringing up that the Dalai Lama now only wants greater autonomy for the Tibet Autonomous Region. If the "Free Tibet" secessionists would support that stance rather than what they are fighting for, then I think it would help the DL's cause as well. Too many people on both sides of the issue think that the DL wants to rip Tibet away from China and make it its own country independent of its motherland like when the USA broke away from Britain or the CSA broke away from the USA and was bludgeoned back in to submission by President Lincoln, General Grant, and the military forces of the USA.

     

  • At April 13, 2008 5:29 PM , Blogger 尼克 said...

    I have recently read a lot about the people who cry out for "Tibetan independence". They state their objectives with such hatred and violence that it arouses second thoughts about their true character.

    They have even gone so far as to attempt to grab the torch out of the hands of Chinese wheelchair-bound torch-bearer Jin Jing in Paris on Monday. They lurched at Jin and her two companions, one of whom is suffering from impaired eye-sight. They nearly knocked Jin out of her wheelchair. You could see the hate and rage in their eyes on TV.

    I have to wonder if these people really represent the Tibetans I have met over the years, whose straightforwardness, kindness and passion still influence my way of looking at the world. I am still proud of the fact that I have spent more time in the Tibet autonomous region than I have ever in Shanghai.

    I have visited many Tibetan homes. The most memorable of all was to folklorist Samzhub, who lives in a valley of Gonggar, about 80 km from Lhasa.

    There, my colleagues and I heard Samzhub, now 86, share his life experiences with us as a Tibetan ballad singer of Gesar, a classical Tibetan epic about a legendary Tibetan hero who fought evil and restored peace and harmony to his people.

    Before we said goodbye, Samzhub put on his new festival dress, placed a new carpet on an open ground not far from his house, and insisted that we sit down and share with him his home-made highland barley wine. I do not drink, but that day, I gave in to his kindness and sincerity. Surrounded by fields of green barley interspersed with yellow rape flowers, and a snow-capped mountain under a blue sky, I drank to my heart's content.

    I have also interviewed many Tibetans, from doctors practicing both Tibetan and Western medicine, to lawyers, agronomists, technicians, writers, teachers, administrators, journalists and monks.

    Every one of them had a story to tell.

    In Xigaze, a grandmother still hung a portrait of the late Chairman Mao Zedong in her new home.

    Also in Xigaze, I talked with women from the local women's federation, and with others in the village. Camqo told me that in Old Tibet, the women were called "gyebmien", meaning something from the waist down. "We were not regarded as a human being but as an animal, a tool," she said.

    In Shannan, I had a long talk with a woman doctor, Yufei, who has been a pioneer in treating coronary heart diseases at the local People's Hospital. Over the years, she had spent some time in Beijing to further her medical skills and knowledge.

    In Lhasa, I visited a workshop where several young Tibetan men were learning to paint and create the famous Thangka paintings, almost all of them themes on Buddhism. Some of the budding artists told me that they wanted to master all the skills and then start their own workshops to pass the Tibetan folk art on to more young people.

    In Nyingchi, I visited a new boarding school and discussed with the teachers on how to teach the children mathematics, many of the words were new to their classical Tibetan language.

    The dreams, wishes and frustrations that the Tibetans shared with me were no different from those of the Va, Bai, Yi, Naxi, Hui, Uygur, Kazak and Mongolian people I have interviewed over the years in Yunnan, Sichuan, Ningxia and Xinjiang.

    Despite their complaints, they all showed a determination to overcome difficulties in order to realize their dreams, because they are the true masters of their lives and their work.

    Only ignorance cultivates hatred and vengeance.

     

  • At April 13, 2008 8:48 PM , Blogger 尼克 said...

    Rudy, will you do me the favor of reading this German report from a Canadian member of the press saying that these protests are still being coordinated by the U.S. and other Western Governments and tell me what you think of it? http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/en/fulltext/56145

     

  • At April 14, 2008 1:06 PM , Blogger Rudy said...

    I'll try to respond in order to your messages Nik.

    5.17pm: You start off with a lot of assumptions and contradictions here: first you assume he is a 'splittist' which the Dalai Lama isn't, and now you go back to a situation of over 3 decades ago to prove your point he is rightly called a 'splittist' - who are you trying to fool?

    Next, you assume he was leader of the resistance with the CIA. I would like to see some proof of that - I have not seen any before, and I'm pretty sure I never will...
    I'm also not sure why such an absolutely tiny and irrelevant operation of the CIA is still coming up in the discussions. If you compare it to the Chinese who were breaking their promises, and were killing hundreds of thousands of Tibetans at the time. A few guns to a few hundred resistance fighters is hardly a comparison to the massive genocide and destruction in progress by the Chinese during the Cultural Revolution. Let's talk about the elephants and leave the musquitos please.
    So if anyone has behaved totally unreliable it is the lying elephant and not the musquito who stings out of self-defence if you know what I mean.
    Don't you think it is an idiotic way of upside-down logic; portraying the Dalai Lama as the unreliable terrorist, whereas the Chinse broke all the agreements and performed state-terrorism for decades. You do have some sense of proportions don't you?

    Your historical analysis can be put upside down easily; apart from the Chinese, not many people in the rest of the world agree that Tibet is part of China - calling everybody a liar who does not agree with you is a bit simple-minded really.
    Having said that, you have already agreed that it is even irrelevant for the current discussion, as only a part of the Tibetans want a separate Tibet, not the government in exile.
    Your comment that since the 1960's things have imporoved, completely ignores that at the end of the 60's things could not have been worse. It is as if I would first torture you until you nearly die, next I patch up some of the worst wounds, and then expect you to be happy about the 'improvement'. Please get real Nik. The Tibetnas never asked for the Chinese style of improvements in which they have become a minority in their own country, they are forced to speak Chinese in their own country because even the taxi-drivers are Chinese etc.

    I agree, apparently the most patriotic thing that the Chinese government expects of the Tibetans is that they shut up and simply rot away in a corner... It may sound very strange, but Tibetans are not enthusiastic about that idea.

    5.21pm: You wrote: "Too many people on both sides of the issue think that the DL wants to rip Tibet away from China". I suppose that is because you apparently only read Chinese propaganda; the rest of the world know for decades now what the Dalai Lama wants.
    And he cannot control every Tibetan - he is not running a dictartorship like the Chinese.
    All you prove here is that the Chinese still refuse to listen to what he says.

    5.29 Gee, you can type fast...
    OK, grabbing a symbolic torch from the hands of someone who is pretending that China is a perfect country is worse then killing hundreds of thousands of Tibetans and repressing the rest. OK, at least I'm clear about your type of proportions. Did I tll you about the musquito and the elephant yet?

    You know why the portrait of Mao was hanging at the old woman? Because the Tibetans are so traumatized they even keep the picture of this mass-murderer in their house, in a vain hope that it will calm down the next soldier who breaks in their home. Sorry, you really wear pink sunglasses when you are in China.

    You wrote: "Despite their complaints, they all showed a determination to overcome difficulties in order to realize their dreams, because they are the true masters of their lives and their work." What else can they do?

    "Only ignorance cultivates hatred and vengeance." Yes, of course, the Tibetans are the ignorant and hateful, surrounded by compassionate soldiers who take care of their every need.

    When you spoke to the Tibetans, what language did you speak Nik? If it was Chinese, I can imagine why you got the impressions of 'happy Tibetans' you got.

    8.48pm Of course I cannot tell if this is true, apart from what my own logic tells me. And that is; 'why the heck would Germany be interested in getting themselves into trouble like that?' Either I am missing some point here, or perhaps this 'Canadian journalist' happens to have Li or Wu as his last name?
    As Chinese have no idea what public protests are, they always assume there has to be an organisation behind it - if not the Dalai Lama, then the US government. I seems to me that the CCP doesn't comprehend that people are not ants, but can have ideas by themselves, without a central orgnisation.
    However, this is only mere speculation as I don't see any proof in the article of the claims.

     

  • At April 14, 2008 1:09 PM , Blogger Rudy said...

    By the way, Nik, I think this blog is pretty inconveniet for having a discussion, what would you think about continuing in a discussion forum, like this one at http://viewonbuddhism.org/Discussion that I just created?

     

  • At April 14, 2008 1:15 PM , Blogger Rudy said...

    Another by the way Nik, have you seen this yet? http://www.agamsgecko.blogspot.com/Your 'vicious attacker' of the girl in the wheelchair is Chinese. I'm sure these photos will not be shown on any Chinese TV station.....
    This is the kind of stuff that makes me feel sick about the Chinese Government; nothing is too low for them.

     

  • At April 14, 2008 1:23 PM , Blogger Rudy said...

    Sorry, one more by the way, if you want proof of ignorance leading to hatred and vengeance, please have a look at this http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2008/04/13/china-fallout-from-the-free-tibet-protests/

    In Buddhism, the relationship between ignorance and hatred is an important subject...

     

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